In fact, the American Society of Civil Engineering authored policy 465 in 1998, and then revised that policy in 2001, 2004, and again in 2007. The crux of the policy states that, “Admission to the practice of civil engineering at the professional level…will typically include a combination of: a baccalaureate degree in civil engineering; a master's degree, or approximately 30coordinated graduate or upper level undergraduate technical and/or professional practice credits; and appropriate experience based upon broad technical and professional practice guidelines which provide sufficient flexibility for a wide range of roles in engineering practice.” In other words, the professional organization of civil engineers is suggesting that engineering needs to be a 6-year professional degree program,similar in duration to medical, law, architecture, pharmacy and other “learned”professions. They go on to blame the “lowered esteem of engineering” within the United States to the fact that engineers have only four years of education(although in the US, most college students are now taking at least five years to complete their B.S. degrees).
I support the concept of education; otherwise, I would not have chosen the career path that I have. At the same time, I am realistic when it comes to the daunting prospect of encouraging students to take on even more debt while delaying entry into the job market for an additional two years. Few people have the assets for that to be a realistic vision.
Civil Engineering is not alone in this transition. According to a New York Times article from July of this year, “Among the new breed of master’s, there are indeedample fields, including construction management and fire science and administration.” Fire science degrees were the topic of an articlein today’s Inside HigherEd. According to that story, master’s degrees help firefighters to advance in their careers and increase their salaries. When does higher education become too much education? Richard K. Vedder, professor of economics at Ohio University and director of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity is quoted as saying, “In 20 years, you’ll need a Ph.D. to be a janitor.” At least those in my cohort will be prepared for that career by then.
As Robyn mentions, our cohort is staying ahead of the curve in the higher ed. diploma mill game, but will there be a degree even more advanced than the PH.D. in a few decades to keep pace with degree inflation?
ReplyDeleteI read the NY Times article Robyn refers to, and the writer (Laura Pappano) cites statistics provided by the Council of Graduate Schools stating that the Master's is now the fastest growing degree, with the number in 2009 (some 657,000) having doubled nationally since the 1980s. Nearly 2 in 25 Americans age 25 and over now have a master's, about the same proportion that had a bachelor's in 1960.
With over 30% of Americans currently possessing some kind of college degree, and with record numbers of college grads hitting a very challenging contemporary job market, we are witnessing large numbers of degree-holders compete with high school grads (or high school dropouts, even) for the jobs that are available. According to a release by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics in August of this year, the share of national 16-24 year olds who were employed in July of 2011 was 48.8% -the lowest on record since recordkeeping began in 1948.
Therefore, as the NY Time article points out, many females and males who formerly would have obtained solid incomes with a bachelor's degree are now obtaining a master's simply to stand out from the crowd and gain a competitive edge in the job market, even as their new cohort grows ever larger.
Where will this degree-inflation trend leave large numbers of disadvantaged Americans who can scarcely afford to attend community college, who may lack basic literacy skills, and yet nevertheless compete head-to-head in growing numbers with bachelor degree holders in a globalizing economy that values information-processing skills over manual labor ability, at increasing rates? This ominous and growing gap between haves and have-nots in our society will have to be addressed sooner or later.
One thing to consider is that an engineering degree, and the professional jobs that come with it, are much different than many other fields. Engineers often times have the lives of thousands of individuals at stake when they make decisions on the job. I have several friends that graduate with 4-year engineering degrees, and these degrees are appropriate for entry level jobs. However, many are now returning to school to further their education. It is really no different from our field in that regard. If you want to be a coordinator of programming than a 4-year degree in education is fine. But, if you wish to seek out the higher level positions a lesser degree provides a real obstacle.
ReplyDeleteGood question...when is does higher education become too much education? I think it does when one enters higher education as a crutch. Yes, there are employment sectors in the world that require advanced training and Masters or even PhDs are required. Yet sometimes I have seen students enter into education with blinders on. The assumption made is that if you have a degree then you will get a job. If you do not get a job then go back and get more education and then you will get a job. No folks, a degree does not equal a job. One should really consider and take a critical look at the education they are considering and seeing if a bachelors or a Masters is even the right path.
ReplyDeleteNow this view may seem odd but I am influenced by what I see in my work. I have too often seen students in the wrong major, college, or education path. When I ask them why they are here pursing a bachelors they say because “I want a good job”. Then I have to decide whether I tell them they should not be at a four-year school. For example, I often see students who want to be personal trainers, athletic trainers, or nurses. They often come in not knowing that a four-year school is not the only option or sometimes the best option. Often times the student can seek certification through a specialized track in a college or national association and do not necessarily need the four-year degree. Have we made up this pre-professional degree track as a way to keep students in four-year programs?
In some cases, I think so. I guess in my mind I wonder why anyone would seek a four-year degree or more advanced degrees if it were not necessary.
Thank you, Robyn, for a great post. I do believe the master's degree is the new bachelor's degree. At least, that is the trend at the community college where I work. There is an increasing push for faculty and staff to have at least a minimum of a master’s degree and most coordinator and higher positions are posted as preferring a doctorate degree. When did this become the standard for a community college? Please correct me if I am wrong, but was one of the original goals of a community college to have technical programs offered and taught by community members with real world experience to provide students with applicable skills and knowledge to enter the workforce? It seems the desire to employ folks with master and doctorate level education sends the message that community colleges do not stand behind their product.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this view on higher education future.
ReplyDeleteAs long as the talk about getting the job after higher education study, we must be subject this debate to the theory of supply and demand. In the previous decades supply was less than demand and it was possible to get a job with low degree, while in these days and with increasing number of graduates that supply became rather than demand, is natural to the business owners to choose the highest degrees which offer to them, which makes low degrees are least probability and at least in employment opportunity. With economic changes and new change in the perception of the professional as well as the theory of supply and demand, as I mentioned earlier, I expect in the next ten years and with increasing of graduates number in higher education that will drive the demand to graduates with a Ph.D., and the PhD will be the new Bachelor's degree for the jobs in marketplace.
There does seem to be evidence that more employers are requiring (or strongly preferring) a graduate degree for what may have formally been an entry-level position. I believe this has less to do with a) the employers desire for more educated employees, or b) supply and demand, and more to do with c) the professionalization/specialization of particular career fields and the desire for professionals to increase their prestige within the field. We see this in the medical field, especially with nursing and nurse-practitioners. While a B.A. and some additional certification used to be sufficient for a productive career as a nurse-practitioner, we are now finding that an M.A. is no longer even enough. The health care industry (the employers) may publically support such a move because it allows them to charge customers the same as if they went to see a medical doctor but only pay the NP a fraction in salary. However, the same companies would prefer to pay even less to NPs with a MA if they could get away with it. Similarly, I don’t necessarily see this as a supply/demand issue because we have to create new Ph.D. programs for NP, and if (as I suggest) the employers are not the ones wanting to hire more educated NPs, the demand is being artificially created. So who has a vested interest in requiring more education?
ReplyDeleteSticking with the NP example, it maybe more informative to look at the particular working relationship NPs have with their more prestigious MD counterparts and associations that license, accredit, and regulate particular aspect of the health care industry. Many excellent NPs do a fantastic job as what they do and as a profession, NPs fight for the recognition they deserve. One way professions get recognized for their knowledge base and technical skills is to assume more responsibilities (in the NP case, one area they fought for was the ability to prescribe medications, at first under the direct supervision of an MD and later, indirect). These are hard fought battles because MDs do not want to give up their power and the prestige of being the sole experts in medication related matters. One way that professions present themselves as ready to assume additional responsibilities is to create additional educational hurtles that demonstrate minimal competencies. Once these are established professional associations would be negligent if they didn’t recommend that their members receive this additional education (jump the hurdles) and that employers should hire these additionally educated individuals. In this case (and framed in my limited knowledge) NPs and their representative professional associations are the ones pushing for making a graduate degree the new BA.
A little closer to home… we can see these same forces at play in student affairs. NASPA, ACPA, and CAS each help ‘ratchet up’ the educational requirements of the career fields they have influence over. Do institutions really want to require an MA (with a Ph.D. preferred) or Ph.D. required for many of student affairs positions they post? Are students demanding these individuals have more education? Parents? Faculty? No, it is the profession that drives this increase. And to what end? We can talk about it this weekend.
Robyn, I think this is especially true for Student Affairs. It is very difficult to break into the field without a master's degree, and even more difficult to get a position in upper administration without a Ph.D. We had a discussion in our last weekend class about whether or not we can respect a leader without a degree in our field, and we landed on no--at least for immediate division head.
ReplyDeleteOn the flip side, it's also important to consider the damage our economic downturn has had on our job market. For classified, administrative positions, we are seeing an incredible increase in applicants with masters degrees and doctorate degrees. They are applying for these jobs because they can't find the jobs they want and went to school to do. They aren't getting hired.
So yes, the Master's is the new bachelor's, but to what end and at what cost?
During undergrad, I decided to major in Psychology because it sounded interesting and I knew my GPA would be far hirer than if I went with engineering, like my parents wanted. Unfortunatley at the time, no one told me a BA in psychology will allow you to file papers for someone who has there MA or PHD in Psychology, and that is it. So when it came to decide what's next, I knew I had not choice but to attend graduate school because my BA was of little employment value, it was almost a year later that I decided I wanted to study student affairs.
ReplyDeleteMany of my friends who have graduated in the past 2 or 3 years have moved home to find work with their Bachelor's, and have ended up working at Starbucks, answering phones and one even worked picking strawberries. On recent trip home this fall, I was catching up with 5 of my friends who graduated before I did. Every single one of them was telling me their plans to return to graduate school, because their Bachelor's degree turned out not to be enough. Knowing what I know about students who recently graduated like myself, I do believe that the MA is the new BA.
-Kim M
Robyn, thank you for your post. I did think at one point that a masters degree was becoming the new bachelors degree, but my opinion has changed (only slightly) since beginning my work for a community college. As I reported in my blog this morning, by 2020 70% of the jobs in Colorado will require that students have a career certificate or college degree. Currently, only 41% of Coloradans have an associates degree or higher. This leaves a 29% gap and we are one of the most educated states in the country.
ReplyDeleteWhile I do agree that some degrees require a masters to even be considered for a job, I believe that working in higher education makes us elitist in our opinions of graduate school. To me, it seems that everyone in higher education has a masters degree, but when I travel outside of my professional arena, things are not this way.
However, if businesses are starting to require masters degree, more students will get a masters. Student debt will increase and the masters degree will begin to lose value. I hope that this does not become the new standard because it will create an even bigger division amongst rich and poor.
Robyn, your post is great...and Lori, I hear you. I think that our view of the world and of seeing that a Master's is the new Bachelor's is due to our place in the world.
ReplyDeleteWhen I go back home to Minnesota and check in with my massive extended family. I am one of two people in 160 or so that have done any doctoral work. 4 of us have Master's Degrees, and probably 20 have Bachelor's level degrees. The rest make their way in the world in whatever way they have discovered. Frankly, I come from agricultural people so a lot of my uncles farm for a living. But a lot of my cousins have 2 year degrees in a medical specialty and work at the local small town hospital which is part of the Mayo Clinic system. I think that once we get out past our world of higher education, the scope of education levels is broader.
One of the things I like about working now in a Community College is that I see a lot more people whose lives are lived mostly outside the world of Academe. And it gives me perspective.
I am all about education and I thankful for all of the opportunities that education has given me. I think though that the Master's as a new Bachelor's thing is not a crisis. I think we'll be okay.